Author Topic: 1/33 P-51D Mustangs  (Read 10219 times)

Uyraell

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Re: 1/33 P-51D Mustangs
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2012, 10:05:39 AM »
Hello Dave.  :)

I saw you asking about the pic of the Mustang posted at Galveston "being a two-seater?".
The tall rudder suggests it is a P51 H, which was in fact a partial redesign of the P15 F and P51 G fuselages, blended with weight-reducing elements of the P15 D and P51 K weight reduction programs, which were separate but ongoing and concurrent.

The P51 H had not only the weight-reduced structural elements of the P51 F and P51 G, but it also inherited the slightly different canopy adopted after the lengthened canopy of the P51 F had been redesigned for the P51 H, and which was shorter in length than that of the P51 F. The other aspect of that is the production source of the canopy itself. There were 3 main sources, and each canopy, though it fit the same rails, differed slightly in height and profile.

The other aspect of P51s flown in displays these days is that many have two post-war conversions that are not thought of by the watching public.

The first is that many have the "wet wing" conversion; basically fueltanks in the wings themselves, an idea put into use allegedly by Piper during the Enforcer development.  The obvious benefit is increased range.

The second is that most P51s flown in displays these days are two-seaters, in that they have had the TF 51 conversion whereby a second seat in the fuselage replaces the radio gear in the compartment behind the pilot's seat.  Modern radio equipment being far less bulky (and far more reliable!) than it's WW2 counterparts has made the TF 51 conversion one of the easiest and most popular for P51 airframes.
Which is why many are flown in displays and two heads are  seen under the canopy.

I hope the info is of help to you Dave. I also admit that someone with more extensive knowledge of the P51 family might correct me in a few details, but the basics I've given here are close-enough for most purposes.

I *do* like very much both the 'metal' panel colouring and the rivet detailing, and I think the exhaust burns on the panel are very neatly done.

Kind and Respectful Regards Dave, Uyraell.
"Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense."
"Ill unto He who ill of it thinks."
- Ed.III Rex Britaniam, AD1348.

Dave Winfield

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Re: 1/33 P-51D Mustangs
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2012, 12:02:33 PM »
Thanks for that info!

I assumed there must have been some adjustments to the shoulder area of the fuselage and a larger canopy.
Your info helps explain some of that.

Obviously removing the Fuel tank (and Radio gear) from behind the seat
allows for a second seat placement...makes sense.

but are the Wing tanks increased? from the original 92 gallon fuel tanks.
or is there just less need for fuel (and range) with modern aircraft?

...
followup
just discovered that "early" D models did not have a fuselage Fuel Tank.
Only "late" D models did.

Early models had a rack for battery and Radio and more electrics mounted underneath.

However, I would assume that many aircraft were modified by adding that extra fuel tank
that later models came with?

My model design has a fuel tank behind the seat, however its very hard to see into
the opening behind the seat, so it could be misinterpreted as a shelf for the battery and radio.
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Uyraell

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Re: 1/33 P-51D Mustangs
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2012, 11:45:39 PM »
Wet Wings.

You're very welcome Dave, I'm glad the info helps a bit. :)

My understanding of the "Wet Wing" modification was that Cavalier, and later,  Piper, added extra tankage towards the tip of each mainplane, and that said tanks were of the "bladder" variety, but treated with coatings which were both fire and bullet resistant, and supposedly self-sealing to a limited degree.
Sources differ as to the origin of the concept. Some have it as having been evolved during the development of the P51 F series, as a means of extending range for the Pacific Theater. Other sources say it was an "in house" innovation by Piper.
In either case, what evolved was two extra tanks within each wing,, apparently one of 88 gallons and the other of 60 or 66 gallons, depending on intended amount of .50 cal ammo being carried. IE: the 88 gal. was a "fixed" arrangement, whereas it was possible to "swap-out" the 66 gal. for the 60 gal. tank, the remaining space being reserved for ammo.
Again though, in either case, most post-war Mustangs seem to have been fitted with "wet wings".

The fuselage tanks were definitely late model P51 D and P51 K fittings, and resulted from a change of radio equipment and repositioning of same within the fuselage. IIrc, this was also the same timeframe in which the "Master Compass" was repositioned within the fuselage, moved rearward, closer to the tailwheel.

As production continued into the P51 H and L series, the same fuselage tank that was behind the pilot would have been fitted, along with the usual plumbing for fuel transfer between tanks, and drop tanks.

Despite being an almost complete redesign, some of that same arrangement did survive to be employed in the P82/F82 Twin Mustang.

And as said, elements of that same fuel arrangement either survived or were resurrected and redesigned for the Piper Enforcer and the Cavalier Mustang projects, along with the Dart Mustang, which of course evolved into the Piper Enforcer in any case, at one time also being known as the "Turbo-Mustang".
Basically: "What happens when you bolt a Rolls Royce Dart Turboprop to a Mustang firewall?".

I'd have to go and research a lot of this again, to go into greater detail, but I hope the info here is also of help to you Dave.

Incidentally, so far as I know, there is no paper model of the Turbo Mustang, the Cavalier Mustang, or the Piper Enforcer "stepchild". Certainly the Piper Enforcer would make for a most unusual Mustang variant, and would probably not be too onerous a design task. Mostly it would be deleting the radiator scoop, replacing the Merlin with the Dart and positioning the exhaust of same on the right side of the fuselage just above the wing leading edge (early model; later models have the exhaust on the left side of the fuselage), and fitting the taller rudder and tail of the late P51H. The wings didn't really change much except for added munitions racks, and those are much the same as seen on a Skyraider AH1.
The  Enforcer prop was of slightly thicker chord than the P51 H prop, in fact it looks rather similar to a Hercules C130 prop, but with slightly more rounded tips to the blades.

Kind and Respectful Regards Dave my friend, Uyraell.
"Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense."
"Ill unto He who ill of it thinks."
- Ed.III Rex Britaniam, AD1348.

Tapcho

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Re: 1/33 P-51D Mustangs
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2012, 03:11:11 AM »
Are you talking about this version Uyrael? Heck of plane, ain't it!



Tappi

Uyraell

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Re: 1/33 P-51D Mustangs
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2012, 06:00:01 AM »
Yes Tappi my friend, that's the beasty! :)

That picture is of the Lycoming Turboprop-engined Piper Enforcer.
The Dart-engined version had the exhaust port on the starboard side of the fuselage.
However, the Lycoming Turboprop was about 300 to 400 HP more than the Dart, and US manufactured, which was part of why the redesign went through yet another redesign.

Even so, the Enforcer would have made a formidable aircraft in the Coin role.
Even as an unarmed airshow display aircraft it would be magnificent.

Sadly though, only as few as three actually exist, and when last I knew, one of those was quietly rotting on an airfield in (what was captioned as) Nth-West Az.

Thank you for posting the pic, Tappi my friend, :)

Kind and Respectful Regards Tappi my friend, Uyraell.
"Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense."
"Ill unto He who ill of it thinks."
- Ed.III Rex Britaniam, AD1348.

Dave Winfield

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Re: 1/33 P-51D Mustangs
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2012, 02:15:17 PM »
That is an interesting and extremely ugly looking plane.

Not something I will be considering as a model.
In fact, I am going to avoid anything that requires any major modifications from the "early D model" design.
I have 20, 30....40 different repaints I want to do with this template.
And thats enough!
lol

After that, it will be back to the Canberra model,
possibly one or two more Autocars,
some new Diorama stuff
and hopefully back to some new Koolwheelz kits!

....

fitted the newly coloured cockpit together and assembled the two halves of the fuselage!

I struggled a bit with the assembly, but part of that was my out of sequence build.
Because I jumped around a bit waiting to get some parts done, I think I caused myself a few headaches.

But in the end, the fuselage is together and looks pretty good.

Although, I have a few small modifications I want to make to the cockpit and surrounding fuselage formers.
Just a couple of spots that I think need some reinforcing and support.

I forgot to install Instrument panel cowling before i took these pics. sorry




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Uyraell

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Re: 1/33 P-51D Mustangs
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2012, 09:59:57 PM »
Looking very good with the fuselage Dave.
The skins look very neat, to my eyes, just the right amount of metallic appearance.

I'm enjoying seeing this one evolve.

I completely understand about not wanting to design the PA48 Enforcer.

Having thought about it again overnight, I realise it would be far more work than I had at first considered. :)

I look forward to seeing the various repaints as they occur.

Kind and Respectful Regards Dave my friend, Uyraell.
"Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense."
"Ill unto He who ill of it thinks."
- Ed.III Rex Britaniam, AD1348.

Loui

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Re: 1/33 P-51D Mustangs
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2012, 12:03:25 AM »
Me Like it

Dave Winfield

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Re: 1/33 P-51D Mustangs
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2012, 04:52:36 PM »
Its been awhile since i updated the progress, and heres why...

With the installation of the Cockpit and the assembly of the front and rear sections of the Fuselage
I found a number of things I didn't like.

And then when I tried to fit a canopy (both the supplied paper one, and a 1/33 scale vacuformed one)
I realized a number of changes were necessary.

The canopy seemed to be too short(lengthwise)...too short (heightwise)...and did not match the proper
shape (at the front) of a real P-51D canopy.
Making comparisons (using photos) I realized there were a number of fuselage differences as well.

Anyway...one change led to another...one adjustment led to three more in other areas...and eventually...



Some of the modifications I've made inlcude:
Cockpit sides...new angles on the sides, a lower opening, improved the shape of the cockpit opening.
Cockpit interior...new sides, new stiffeners and support pieces, a number of little tweaks.
Formers...a couple of former adjustments including adding new supporting formers for the cockpit parts.
Fuselage parts...improved the connection at  mid-cockpit, and altered the upper cowling area around the Instrument panel.
Instrument panel shroud...a new design to better match the real thing
Canopy...a completely new scratchbuilt design that fits the fuselage and more closely matches the real thing.



I am happy enough to continue with the design and test build.
Not sure if I will completely finish the "PinUpGirl" since it has the "old" cockpit and fuselage
and the new canopy doesn't fit it
but its still a good test bed for the rest of the build.

I'll most likely do another "first" build...maybe a Tuskegee plane?
DAVE WINFIELD - GO TO WWW.CUTANDFOLD.INFO FOR MY DESIGNS AND LOTSA FREE STUFF!

Vermin King

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Re: 1/33 P-51D Mustangs
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2012, 07:26:18 PM »
It's a shame to have the pin-up girl die before she's done, but I understand ...
There are no strangers in this world ...
Only people I haven't embarrassed ... yet

mldixon

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Re: 1/33 P-51D Mustangs
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2012, 06:21:34 PM »
It's a shame to have the pin-up girl die before she's done, but I understand ...

Well it looks like I am gonna have to buy yet another model... I don't think the pinup girl should die...maybe just move the graphic...